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	<title>Comments on: Transit in Toronto: Social Media and the Politics of Transit Funding</title>
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	<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/</link>
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		<title>By: Rohan Jayasekera</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-16875</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohan Jayasekera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-16875</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Diane: all that matters is votes.  It really doesn&#039;t matter whether a congestion charge is a good thing or not, in the same way that it didn&#039;t matter whether the new subway routes (Sheppard and the Spadina extension) were a good thing or not.  Unfortunately Torontonians are not inclined to vote federally or provincially according to their self-interest, and will continue to be taken advantage of.

(Not to exempt our local politicians from blame.  The horrible Front Street Extension is still alive because Councillor Joe Pantalone likes construction jobs, and because the mayor and some other councillors indulge him in this.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Diane: all that matters is votes.  It really doesn&#8217;t matter whether a congestion charge is a good thing or not, in the same way that it didn&#8217;t matter whether the new subway routes (Sheppard and the Spadina extension) were a good thing or not.  Unfortunately Torontonians are not inclined to vote federally or provincially according to their self-interest, and will continue to be taken advantage of.</p>
<p>(Not to exempt our local politicians from blame.  The horrible Front Street Extension is still alive because Councillor Joe Pantalone likes construction jobs, and because the mayor and some other councillors indulge him in this.)</p>
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		<title>By: Diane</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-15846</link>
		<dc:creator>Diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 01:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-15846</guid>
		<description>Mark - you speak like a bureaucrat. I&#039;m just a simple, plain talking Torontonian. Senior government WILL get its head around Toronto when we all vote - and say &quot;no thank you&quot; to politicians who don&#039;t care about this city.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark &#8211; you speak like a bureaucrat. I&#8217;m just a simple, plain talking Torontonian. Senior government WILL get its head around Toronto when we all vote &#8211; and say &#8220;no thank you&#8221; to politicians who don&#8217;t care about this city.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-15512</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-15512</guid>
		<description>I think a number of things are now self evident such that the implementation of a congestion tax will and should happpen. They are (1) senior government hasn&#039;t got its head around transit as national competitiveness strategy (2) Toronto hasn&#039;t got its head around senior government isn&#039;t going to pay for it (3) transit development requires the articulation of a concurrent strategic transportation (car)/transit vision (verse route placement discussions) (4) Toronto needs to take bold transit decisions via innovative expansion funding models, station as destination planning, capital equipment purchasing partnerships with other transit systems for economy of scale (long term), adpt a we can make it happen attitude instead of &quot;where&#039;s the money&quot; all the time, etc. and above all (5) Toronto should have taken the lead in transit (vision wise) and partnering wise has because it has now lost that role to the Greater Toronto Transit Authority (GTTA).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a number of things are now self evident such that the implementation of a congestion tax will and should happpen. They are (1) senior government hasn&#8217;t got its head around transit as national competitiveness strategy (2) Toronto hasn&#8217;t got its head around senior government isn&#8217;t going to pay for it (3) transit development requires the articulation of a concurrent strategic transportation (car)/transit vision (verse route placement discussions) (4) Toronto needs to take bold transit decisions via innovative expansion funding models, station as destination planning, capital equipment purchasing partnerships with other transit systems for economy of scale (long term), adpt a we can make it happen attitude instead of &#8220;where&#8217;s the money&#8221; all the time, etc. and above all (5) Toronto should have taken the lead in transit (vision wise) and partnering wise has because it has now lost that role to the Greater Toronto Transit Authority (GTTA).</p>
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		<title>By: Diane</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-12924</link>
		<dc:creator>Diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don&#039;t even think about charging me one red cent in congestion charges or road tolls until this city has an real alternative. Toronto public transit as it stands today is NOT an alternative - it&#039;s an embarrassment of a transit system. Any politician who does not support the funding NOW of 100% of the plan presented by the TTC (transitcity.ca) - Federal, Provicial, Municipal - NDP, Liberal or Conservative - WILL NOT get my vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t even think about charging me one red cent in congestion charges or road tolls until this city has an real alternative. Toronto public transit as it stands today is NOT an alternative &#8211; it&#8217;s an embarrassment of a transit system. Any politician who does not support the funding NOW of 100% of the plan presented by the TTC (transitcity.ca) &#8211; Federal, Provicial, Municipal &#8211; NDP, Liberal or Conservative &#8211; WILL NOT get my vote.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan Jayasekera</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-7955</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohan Jayasekera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-7955</guid>
		<description>Several things:

1.  Mark, my remark about socialists was not intended to refer to the congestion charge, but to the &quot;I&#039;ll tell you what&#039;s best for you&quot; attitude that is unfortunately found among many transit activists and is inherent in socialism.  Sorry for the confusion.

2.  Kieran mentions the huge costs required to have a car.  But lots of people want to have a car if only for schlepping groceries etc. (and not everyone lives near an AutoShare or ZipCar location!), and are open to transit for getting to and from work.  For them, insurance is a sunk cost and we have to compare the incremental costs of driving/parking vs. &quot;transitting&quot; to work.  Transit usually still wins, but not by as much.  I do agree with Kieran&#039;s point that &quot;cost is not the deciding factor&quot;, but wanted to mention this to help complete the picture.

3.  Further to Kieran&#039;s point about &quot;spacial priority&quot; for transit, I heard my friend Jaime Watt point out to Mayor David Miller that one huge difference between a streetcar line that has its own right of way and one that doesn&#039;t is that the former is so much more predictable because it&#039;s not affected by the level of other traffic.  In fact, it can be more predictable than driving.  Jaime is much more likely to take a streetcar like the Spadina one because of, to use his phrase that the mayor liked, &quot;certainty of journey time&quot;.  Without that, anyone who wants to be somewhere at a certain time, and doesn&#039;t have oodles of spare time, is likely to avoid transit if possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several things:</p>
<p>1.  Mark, my remark about socialists was not intended to refer to the congestion charge, but to the &#8220;I&#8217;ll tell you what&#8217;s best for you&#8221; attitude that is unfortunately found among many transit activists and is inherent in socialism.  Sorry for the confusion.</p>
<p>2.  Kieran mentions the huge costs required to have a car.  But lots of people want to have a car if only for schlepping groceries etc. (and not everyone lives near an AutoShare or ZipCar location!), and are open to transit for getting to and from work.  For them, insurance is a sunk cost and we have to compare the incremental costs of driving/parking vs. &#8220;transitting&#8221; to work.  Transit usually still wins, but not by as much.  I do agree with Kieran&#8217;s point that &#8220;cost is not the deciding factor&#8221;, but wanted to mention this to help complete the picture.</p>
<p>3.  Further to Kieran&#8217;s point about &#8220;spacial priority&#8221; for transit, I heard my friend Jaime Watt point out to Mayor David Miller that one huge difference between a streetcar line that has its own right of way and one that doesn&#8217;t is that the former is so much more predictable because it&#8217;s not affected by the level of other traffic.  In fact, it can be more predictable than driving.  Jaime is much more likely to take a streetcar like the Spadina one because of, to use his phrase that the mayor liked, &#8220;certainty of journey time&#8221;.  Without that, anyone who wants to be somewhere at a certain time, and doesn&#8217;t have oodles of spare time, is likely to avoid transit if possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Kuznicki</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-7949</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Kuznicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-7949</guid>
		<description>Kieran - I agree that individual choices have everything to do with the user experience.  The system overall has to shift the relative cost/benefit radically to improve the system overall.

My point is: user experience and transit priority COSTS MONEY!

As I describe above, the charge is part of an answer that includes LARGE investments into that transit capacity and user experience.  See the London example.  A congestion charge should not go into general revenues, it should finance that capital program.

In Toronto, the gap is much greater, so we need lots more capital investment to make up for the years of neglect.

Congestion charging may not be the first step, but it is an inevitable step in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kieran &#8211; I agree that individual choices have everything to do with the user experience.  The system overall has to shift the relative cost/benefit radically to improve the system overall.</p>
<p>My point is: user experience and transit priority COSTS MONEY!</p>
<p>As I describe above, the charge is part of an answer that includes LARGE investments into that transit capacity and user experience.  See the London example.  A congestion charge should not go into general revenues, it should finance that capital program.</p>
<p>In Toronto, the gap is much greater, so we need lots more capital investment to make up for the years of neglect.</p>
<p>Congestion charging may not be the first step, but it is an inevitable step in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Huggins</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-7944</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Huggins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-7944</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think a congestion charge is the answer. 

As Ryan pointed out earlier, people don&#039;t drive because it&#039;s less expensive, they drive because the user experience is better. In order to move to a more transit-based society, we have to improve the transit user experience to beyond that of driving, which in ideal circumstances would be a difficult task. Let&#039;s face it: driving is nice.

As many of us are starting to witness, driving in Toronto (especially at rush hour) is becoming more frustrating and expensive. Yet many people still prefer it to transit because they don&#039;t see enough gain in switching. The cost / benefit ratio simply isn&#039;t big enough.

Increasing costs seems to have little effect on conversion from driving to transit - costs have been steadily rising for years, but the vast majority of those who can still afford to drive (no matter how barely) continue to do so. Besides, the cost of operating a vehicle is already vastly more than unlimited transit. The cost of insurance alone for most adults is comparable to a metropass! Clearly, cost is not the deciding factor.

So what&#039;s my alternative? Prioritize transit. Not just signal priority, but also spacial priority. Build light rail in central corridors (like Spadina) and give it signal priority to other traffic. What we should be aiming for is a system that reflects the interests of the population - if 1/3 of commuters in the city are using transit, let&#039;s try to give them 1/3 of our limited roadway.

I think it&#039;s important to introduce as few artificial incentives as possible. If there&#039;s enough transit and it&#039;s a good enough user experience it will slowly win over many existing drivers.

But I&#039;m an optimist... :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think a congestion charge is the answer. </p>
<p>As Ryan pointed out earlier, people don&#8217;t drive because it&#8217;s less expensive, they drive because the user experience is better. In order to move to a more transit-based society, we have to improve the transit user experience to beyond that of driving, which in ideal circumstances would be a difficult task. Let&#8217;s face it: driving is nice.</p>
<p>As many of us are starting to witness, driving in Toronto (especially at rush hour) is becoming more frustrating and expensive. Yet many people still prefer it to transit because they don&#8217;t see enough gain in switching. The cost / benefit ratio simply isn&#8217;t big enough.</p>
<p>Increasing costs seems to have little effect on conversion from driving to transit &#8211; costs have been steadily rising for years, but the vast majority of those who can still afford to drive (no matter how barely) continue to do so. Besides, the cost of operating a vehicle is already vastly more than unlimited transit. The cost of insurance alone for most adults is comparable to a metropass! Clearly, cost is not the deciding factor.</p>
<p>So what&#8217;s my alternative? Prioritize transit. Not just signal priority, but also spacial priority. Build light rail in central corridors (like Spadina) and give it signal priority to other traffic. What we should be aiming for is a system that reflects the interests of the population &#8211; if 1/3 of commuters in the city are using transit, let&#8217;s try to give them 1/3 of our limited roadway.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s important to introduce as few artificial incentives as possible. If there&#8217;s enough transit and it&#8217;s a good enough user experience it will slowly win over many existing drivers.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m an optimist&#8230; <img src='http://remarkk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mark Kuznicki</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-7846</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Kuznicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-7846</guid>
		<description>I think Rohan&#039;s intended model and mine are actually very similar.  I wouldn&#039;t cast the idea of a congestion charge as particularly socialist or not socialist.  That&#039;s not even a relevant lens.

Sustainability thinking, however, would argue that the externalities of the marketplace (costs born by third-parties) can be re-internalized, preferably through some market-based mechanism.

In the millions upon millions of transactions between all of us who drive cars and the auto and oil industries, what costs are third parties bearing?  I can only begin to ponder the scale of such a number.

So, how about a flexible system of hour-by-hour tarif pricing that is tied to real-time or near real-time user demands on the system?  Surely somewhere in this city we have the wherewithall to come up with a pricing model for road useage that is based on strong transportation economics?

As in London, Toronto could make a very large anticipatory investment in public transit capacity (and user experience!) to ease the transition.  Such a large capital investment can be readily financed by revenues from the congestion charge.

Currently, taxpayer dollars almost completely subsidize public streets and highways that are seen as a god-given right for every individual.  Meanwhile, transit is seen as somehow as exotic, European and socialist.

If we remain stuck in a false left-right dichotomy on this issue, I fear that recent progress on the transit file will be a short-term blip of optimism during a generation-long period of decline, neglect and stalemate.

I am saddened by Tree&#039;s comment, about what it says about our city that the transit system is seen as potentially dangerous by pregnant mothers.  Of course, some people will always err on the side of caution and make the choice, if they can afford it, to go to the perceived safety of driving a car on congested Toronto streets rather than use transit.  I think her story makes all too clear why the neglect of the past 20 years or more is unacceptable.

Great cities require great transit, which requires serious long-term and stable investment.  I would ask those that are against a congestion charge to come up with a politically and financially viable alternative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Rohan&#8217;s intended model and mine are actually very similar.  I wouldn&#8217;t cast the idea of a congestion charge as particularly socialist or not socialist.  That&#8217;s not even a relevant lens.</p>
<p>Sustainability thinking, however, would argue that the externalities of the marketplace (costs born by third-parties) can be re-internalized, preferably through some market-based mechanism.</p>
<p>In the millions upon millions of transactions between all of us who drive cars and the auto and oil industries, what costs are third parties bearing?  I can only begin to ponder the scale of such a number.</p>
<p>So, how about a flexible system of hour-by-hour tarif pricing that is tied to real-time or near real-time user demands on the system?  Surely somewhere in this city we have the wherewithall to come up with a pricing model for road useage that is based on strong transportation economics?</p>
<p>As in London, Toronto could make a very large anticipatory investment in public transit capacity (and user experience!) to ease the transition.  Such a large capital investment can be readily financed by revenues from the congestion charge.</p>
<p>Currently, taxpayer dollars almost completely subsidize public streets and highways that are seen as a god-given right for every individual.  Meanwhile, transit is seen as somehow as exotic, European and socialist.</p>
<p>If we remain stuck in a false left-right dichotomy on this issue, I fear that recent progress on the transit file will be a short-term blip of optimism during a generation-long period of decline, neglect and stalemate.</p>
<p>I am saddened by Tree&#8217;s comment, about what it says about our city that the transit system is seen as potentially dangerous by pregnant mothers.  Of course, some people will always err on the side of caution and make the choice, if they can afford it, to go to the perceived safety of driving a car on congested Toronto streets rather than use transit.  I think her story makes all too clear why the neglect of the past 20 years or more is unacceptable.</p>
<p>Great cities require great transit, which requires serious long-term and stable investment.  I would ask those that are against a congestion charge to come up with a politically and financially viable alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Cleaver, masterfully. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why don&#8217;t Toronto&#8217;s Go Trains stop inside the city?</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-7843</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Cleaver, masterfully. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why don&#8217;t Toronto&#8217;s Go Trains stop inside the city?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-7843</guid>
		<description>[...] As Mark Kuznicki said in the Transit Camp back channel: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As Mark Kuznicki said in the Transit Camp back channel: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan Jayasekera</title>
		<link>http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-7408</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohan Jayasekera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://remarkk.com/2007/03/16/transit-in-toronto-social-media-and-the-politics-of-transit-funding/#comment-7408</guid>
		<description>Tree&#039;s comment is a good one.  The demonization of car users is ridiculous.  I&#039;m half expecting pregnant women to be told to ride bicycles.

Instead of eco-fascism, let&#039;s have transportation priced according to its full costs.  Vehicles should be charged for road usage (with heavy vehicles charged much more because of the consequent road damage), emissions, etc.  Technology such as the above-mentioned Skymeter can make such things practical.  Then people can make intelligent decisions on their mode of transport according to their personal situations, and not according to what some holier-than-thou socialist says.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tree&#8217;s comment is a good one.  The demonization of car users is ridiculous.  I&#8217;m half expecting pregnant women to be told to ride bicycles.</p>
<p>Instead of eco-fascism, let&#8217;s have transportation priced according to its full costs.  Vehicles should be charged for road usage (with heavy vehicles charged much more because of the consequent road damage), emissions, etc.  Technology such as the above-mentioned Skymeter can make such things practical.  Then people can make intelligent decisions on their mode of transport according to their personal situations, and not according to what some holier-than-thou socialist says.</p>
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